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[Music]

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welcome back to the yuma theater after

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lunch break uh where we have another

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four entertaining sessions for you

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the next speaker is justin warren

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uh he will be speaking on how to annoy

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the government with freedom information

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requests

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just as a hobbyist

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programmer mostly in python

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you may know him from such activities as

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yelling at the government about foi and

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making silly stickers about how terrible

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computers are

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when he isn't writing terrible code and

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writing submissions to government

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inquiries he runs a consulting company

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justin will endeavor to allow time for

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questions at the end so please enter any

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questions in the tab in venulis

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if he does run out of time he promises

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to

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answer questions in the chat or

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he agrees to be contacted at the contact

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information in the final slide

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over to justin

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thank you very much and thank you

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everyone for coming along and

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paying attention to my my silly chat

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um hopefully you find it interesting so

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my talk today is how to annoy the

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government with freedom of information

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requests

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no how hard could that be um as someone

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said earlier this week that's not really

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very difficult you just have to file

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them like ah

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but how do you do that you have to file

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a valid request and you have to send it

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to the right agency in the right form

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and whatnot so i'm going to tell you how

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to do that

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there's two ways there is easy mode and

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hard mode now as a rich white guy i am

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an expert in easy mode but i will also

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touch on hard mode a little bit at least

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as i've experienced it

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um not all the agencies get annoyed if

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you make an foi request some of them are

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actually not too bad and the ones that

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are helpful everything in this talk will

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help you with them as well in fact it

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will help you to value and appreciate

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those agencies even more

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it will also help you with the other

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kinds of agencies that are say

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a little less helpful

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now the first thing is that freedom of

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information is all about documents um if

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you read the abstract and i assume none

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of you did so i'll give give you a quick

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preview of what it was about anyway so

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this talk is all about the freedom of

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information act and the process that

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that covers and it's particularly i'm

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going to

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i'm going to concentrate on the

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australian federal freedom of

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information act so there are state-based

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acts which are very similar and a lot of

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what you learned today can apply to them

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but i'm most familiar with the one that

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deals with the federal

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the federal jurisdiction it's also quite

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similar in other nations so if you are

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coming to us from a country outside of

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australia or watching this talk later on

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then you may find some of this useful in

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your own local agencies as well

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but again i am concentrating on the

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federal one and it is based in australia

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um now why would i talk to you at all

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about this and why why would i focus on

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that i was like well i have a little bit

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of experience at foi part of why i

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wanted to put this talk together was

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that i actually started off like many of

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you knowing absolutely nothing about

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what i was doing

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so i'm going to try to give you a bit of

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a quick overview of what i've learned in

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the last five or six years since i took

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up this really really quite silly hobby

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i started off just going hmm i'd

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actually quite like to know some

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information and there's this thing

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called the foi act

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what happens if i just try to use it

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so that's what i did i started off

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knowing basically nothing and learnt by

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doing it i put in an foi request and the

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first one you know it started innocently

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enough i put my request in i had a not

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terrible time the agency was pretty

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helpful i got the information i was

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after the bureaucrats i dealt with were

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helpful and courteous and we figured our

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way through things together i learned a

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bunch of stuff and i kind of had fun

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and then robo debt happened um

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it happened to nerd snipe me really

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quite badly because my interest in

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governance and interest in transparency

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intersected with knowing things about

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computers and this was one of those

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government attempts at computer ring

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that i thought was clearly going to be

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broken and from the very outset so i

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went let's have a look at what you've

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actually put into the process before you

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start this and see why you're trying to

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do this obviously dumb thing

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and so

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then i have kept doing it um and i

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learned more about the process and they

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didn't give me the information i wanted

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so i experienced the glories of the

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administrative affairs tribunal

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and i kept doing more of it

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and more of it

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and what this agency failed to realize

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is that i can be extremely motivated by

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vengeance and spite

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call it tenacity and resilience if you

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like all bloody-minded stupidness

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it works for me

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but why would you bother doing this well

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sometimes you do actually get the

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information out of it and handy

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journalists will write about what you

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discovered and my idea was that

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hopefully this could actually change

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some behavior and maybe if we do fewer

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stupid things that will leave room for

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us to do some intelligent and great

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things

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and other people have seen what i did

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and copied me which i get a bit of

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vicarious pleasure from so eliza only

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started doing this a few months ago and

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she hit me up for some questions say hey

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how do you do this i'm not sure that i

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know this it's actually not that

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difficult um give it a burl

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and she's now annoying the government

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with every much as as i can and you too

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can become a snarky antagonist why not

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it is actually fun it's like solving a

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puzzle or going on an adventure so think

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of it as like an extra nerdy form of d d

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where the dungeon master hates you

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but remember before you go on an

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adventure you should probably pack a few

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things get your backpack ready

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so

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what do you need

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to have an foi adventure let's have a

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look at some basic equipment that i've

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found is very very useful and some of

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the things that i kind of wish i'd done

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right back at the beginning if only i'd

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known what i was doing a bit earlier so

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hopefully i'll help you with some things

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that you'll realize a little bit earlier

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on now i figure that since you're here

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listening to this talk

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you probably have an above average

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interest in doing this so if you're only

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going to do one request you wouldn't

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need anywhere near this many tools

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but if you mean to do a few more of them

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or like me you're prone to picking up

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silly hobbies that might actually become

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a bit of a habit if we can start to put

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some of these good practices in at the

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beginning it'll make life a lot easier

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later on

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that's what i've this is what i've found

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handy if you find tools that you think

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are going to help you great build your

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own toolkit that's what all of this is

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about

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now the first thing that you're going to

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need is some internet

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i'm assuming that since you're here

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watching a talk which is at an online

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conference that you've probably figured

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out the internet and browser parts of

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what you actually need

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so you're pretty much already on your

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way

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now mobile is actually okay for doing a

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lot of this stuff but there's a lot of

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typing and reading and depending on how

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large your phablet is or your phone some

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they're massive these days i can't i

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might hands are too small i actually

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like a smaller phone

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but if you have a laptop or a chromebook

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you don't need a massive developer grade

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workstation with 300 gpus or anything

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it's just you're mostly dealing with

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text so this will be fine

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now with your browser one thing that i

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do recommend is grabbing an extension

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called zotero i think that's how you

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pronounce it so zotero is a citation

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manager it actually lives uh beside the

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browser but it has plugins for all the

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different browsers and also document

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writers

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now it's a little bit like bookmarking

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in your browser so you can save

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something and come back to it later but

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it deals with the really boring parts of

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writing quite formal documents academics

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will know all about citations

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it does the citation formatting for you

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and it understands what some of the

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standard forms of doing that are so

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if you actually have to do any kind of

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academic writing and you haven't been

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using something like zotero now is a

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great time to start

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you will start to wonder how you ever

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dealt with uh dealt with dealing with

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this beforehand

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it has all kinds of fancy functions and

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features that i think make it better for

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you than just having a standard browser

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uh bookmarking tool or one of the notes

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tools like say evernote or um i can't i

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don't know delicious even

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old bookmarking tool pin board is sort

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of useful you can sort of make

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annotations but they don't do all the

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things that zotero does zotero is free

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it's open source it runs on most of the

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browser most operating systems it has

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plugins for most of the browsers and

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major document editors

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it's great i really recommend it

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the next tool that i think you should

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use is called write to know specifically

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right to know dot org dot a u

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this is based on some open source

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software which is available in multiple

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jurisdictions throughout the world again

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this one is focused on australia

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mostly again around federal agencies

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this website handles the workflow for

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you so

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it will find you can search for the

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agency that you want type that into the

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box and it will then email to the

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appropriate contact address for freedom

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of information requests you don't have

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to look it up yourself and it will then

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manage the correspondence that ties to

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that one freedom of information request

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so that you don't have to track it

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manually yourself it knows the timings

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so when you should expect a response and

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when you get one what do i do with this

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and sort of it helps you work through

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the process i find that really handy

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it's particularly good if you do more

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than one there have been times where

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i've had three or four on the go at once

280
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,160
and if i tried to manage that myself

281
00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,680
using my own systems and manually with

282
00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,920
spreadsheets or some sort of task

283
00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:21,519
tracker i i just forget that i have to

284
00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,440
do them

285
00:10:21,519 --> 00:10:24,720
it's wonderful for the reminders part

286
00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,640
alone

287
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:29,040
the other great thing about it is that

288
00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:31,519
most of it is public so you can go and

289
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:33,120
see what other people have done you can

290
00:10:31,519 --> 00:10:34,560
go and look at all of my freedom of

291
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,880
information requests that i've done

292
00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:39,200
through this and you can see what i did

293
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,320
and you can learn from my mistakes and

294
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,720
you can then

295
00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,880
make annotations to it you can cut and

296
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:47,839
paste from that to do your own things i

297
00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:50,079
do it all the time so it's it helps you

298
00:10:47,839 --> 00:10:52,720
to learn the process as well as actually

299
00:10:50,079 --> 00:10:54,959
doing the process so it's really great

300
00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,880
it's run by the folks at open australia

301
00:10:54,959 --> 00:10:58,640
they're not for profit please give them

302
00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:01,120
money so that they can continue to run

303
00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,120
great sites like this and help us all to

304
00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,640
get information from the government

305
00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,920
now speaking of information from the

306
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,519
government

307
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,200
the regulator the office of the

308
00:11:07,519 --> 00:11:11,120
australian information commissioner is

309
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,560
responsible for freedom of information

310
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,519
among other things privacy and a few

311
00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:15,120
other bits

312
00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:18,000
they write a thing called the fli

313
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:20,640
guidelines and this is an explanation

314
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,880
both for individuals like you and me

315
00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,560
and also for government agencies about

316
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,480
what the practice of the freedom of

317
00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:27,279
information act should actually look

318
00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,399
like

319
00:11:27,279 --> 00:11:32,480
so it explains the law not just the act

320
00:11:30,399 --> 00:11:34,160
but also all the case law and all the

321
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,560
decisions that have been made through

322
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:39,120
time over since the first act was was

323
00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:41,360
passed in i think 1982

324
00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,640
so it helps to consolidate the knowledge

325
00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,480
and explain it in ways that you can

326
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,800
generally follow and it's broken down

327
00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,480
into sections so you can go and learn

328
00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,959
about the bit that's appropriate for

329
00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,800
what you're trying to do

330
00:11:50,959 --> 00:11:56,720
it's wonderful this is how i've learned

331
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:58,639
a huge amount about how foi works um and

332
00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,800
when i've been having to do appeals and

333
00:11:58,639 --> 00:12:02,320
so on this is how i've helped understand

334
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,839
what is the process for doing that what

335
00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,760
do i do next

336
00:12:03,839 --> 00:12:07,519
um i've done quite a few appeals as it

337
00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,279
turns out so i've gotten used to that

338
00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:11,279
they also handle the complaints i've

339
00:12:09,279 --> 00:12:12,800
done a few of them as well

340
00:12:11,279 --> 00:12:14,720
so it's a great place to get for you to

341
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,399
go and learn and to go and read the

342
00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,240
decisions that they make so you can kind

343
00:12:16,399 --> 00:12:20,000
of get a feel for how the whole thing

344
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,440
works in practice

345
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,120
another part of how that works is

346
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,360
another website i'd recommend which is

347
00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:28,480
called austria so a lot of the things

348
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:31,920
from the oaic's website will link to

349
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:34,480
actual legal things on osley so ostley

350
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:37,120
is the australian legal

351
00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,720
something institute i think i forget

352
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,959
what is it legal information institute

353
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:43,680
it's right there on the page

354
00:12:40,959 --> 00:12:45,360
uh this should be a public service but

355
00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:47,200
it isn't it's another not-for-profit

356
00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,040
paid for by essentially contributions

357
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,120
from a lot of law firms and law

358
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,399
universities um i don't know why it's

359
00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,720
not a public service

360
00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:56,480
there is a there is legislation on

361
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,760
government websites but the formatting

362
00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,079
is really hard to navigate it's

363
00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:02,720
basically just one big long document um

364
00:13:00,079 --> 00:13:04,480
this the osley format of things has

365
00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,720
links to individual sections so you can

366
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,839
very quickly find bits and pieces it

367
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:12,000
also has lots of uh case law on there so

368
00:13:09,839 --> 00:13:14,560
it makes the law

369
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,399
in in its entirety the broad bit much

370
00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:17,200
more accessible to people like you and

371
00:13:16,399 --> 00:13:18,480
me

372
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:21,519
you can go and search for things the

373
00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:24,240
search is pretty good it's not brilliant

374
00:13:21,519 --> 00:13:25,680
but it mostly works and it also cross

375
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,360
references to a whole bunch of other

376
00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:29,040
bits and pieces so you can link from one

377
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,360
piece of legislation off to another and

378
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,920
end up having seven billion tabs open as

379
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,920
i'm sure we all like to do

380
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,160
it's how i learned again a lot of how

381
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:41,120
this works is i started reading the

382
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:42,800
actual law itself and learned as i went

383
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,880
this is the documentation to the

384
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,800
operating system of a society

385
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:49,040
essentially

386
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:51,519
now the next part of this is that along

387
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,920
with going and looking at specific acts

388
00:13:51,519 --> 00:13:56,079
within this you can actually go and find

389
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,760
specific case law so these are

390
00:13:56,079 --> 00:14:00,000
individual decisions that have been made

391
00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,000
by a judge or someone from the

392
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,240
administrative affairs tribunal or the

393
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,160
information commissioner themselves

394
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,320
and that's through another thing also

395
00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,160
run by the folks who run ostly which is

396
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,240
called law site

397
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,560
law sites great for looking for specific

398
00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,760
cases there's a particular referencing

399
00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:19,040
method that they use which is sort of

400
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:22,160
like a a year and the jurisdiction and

401
00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:24,079
then a number afterwards so that is a

402
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,040
way of you finding a specific case

403
00:14:24,079 --> 00:14:27,040
reference

404
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,279
you can also use right at the bottom of

405
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,040
the search box there you can refer to

406
00:14:29,279 --> 00:14:33,680
something like freedom of information

407
00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:35,760
act and then which section so

408
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,240
you might be looking for all the cases

409
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:40,880
that have referred to section 11 or

410
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:43,440
section 34 of the freedom of information

411
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:45,120
act and then you can look at that and it

412
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,440
brings a list of them by how often

413
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,839
they've been cited so the most popular

414
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,519
ones are at the top so it's a little bit

415
00:14:49,839 --> 00:14:53,040
like a search engine well it is it's a

416
00:14:51,519 --> 00:14:54,399
search engine for case law and it will

417
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,279
show you the stuff that is sort of the

418
00:14:54,399 --> 00:14:59,279
most important right at the beginning

419
00:14:57,279 --> 00:15:01,600
the next bit that you might need is a

420
00:14:59,279 --> 00:15:03,519
document editor

421
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,360
that's if you want to start writing

422
00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:07,120
things down in greater detail than you

423
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,320
just want to put into the website on

424
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,480
right to know

425
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,079
i find it handy to draft out what i plan

426
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,600
to do so that i can kind of think

427
00:15:12,079 --> 00:15:16,240
through it a bit particularly when i'm

428
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:18,000
responding to agencies in some of the

429
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,399
more complicated cases that i've had to

430
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,240
deal with um you probably won't need to

431
00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:24,320
use this as much

432
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,320
but it's useful if you're concerned that

433
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,959
firefox might decide that it's time to

434
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:31,759
reboot today and you might lose all of

435
00:15:28,959 --> 00:15:33,360
your work um that's always interesting

436
00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:34,880
so put it somewhere where it saves your

437
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,480
progress and then you can come back and

438
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,759
refer to it later on

439
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,120
and maybe use that for some of your

440
00:15:37,759 --> 00:15:41,440
other cases

441
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,199
so here's a handy checklist

442
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,240
take a screenshot if you like print it

443
00:15:43,199 --> 00:15:47,600
out for yourself build your own

444
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,000
create your own checklist for how you

445
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,880
how you do it

446
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,480
but

447
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,480
we're ready to go

448
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:57,040
so let's have a look at how we actually

449
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,079
do your first foi request

450
00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,519
okay

451
00:15:58,079 --> 00:16:00,399
i'm going to use an example of one of

452
00:15:59,519 --> 00:16:02,480
mine

453
00:16:00,399 --> 00:16:03,920
again you can go and look this one up on

454
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,600
right to know and

455
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,839
grab all of it for yourself and use it

456
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,320
as a template i encourage you to do so

457
00:16:07,839 --> 00:16:12,639
this is the one i did most recently as

458
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:15,360
you can see it wasn't successful

459
00:16:12,639 --> 00:16:17,759
originally um i have appealed we are now

460
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,920
in the waiting stage but uh it can show

461
00:16:17,759 --> 00:16:21,519
you a bunch of how the process works and

462
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,160
in particular it will show you what my

463
00:16:21,519 --> 00:16:26,000
standard request looks like

464
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,680
the first thing that we want to do is to

465
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,440
make it clear that this is a freedom of

466
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,959
information request

467
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,959
it has to be clear and valid and in

468
00:16:30,959 --> 00:16:34,800
writing so by writing it into right to

469
00:16:32,959 --> 00:16:37,759
know we've taken care of that bit so

470
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,600
tick off off the checkbox

471
00:16:37,759 --> 00:16:42,160
on this you'll see that i've said if

472
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:44,399
possible give me the information using

473
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,320
informal or administrative means

474
00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:48,240
that means you don't have to go and use

475
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,639
the freedom of information request

476
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,240
process if you don't want to mr agency

477
00:16:50,639 --> 00:16:54,480
or mrs agency

478
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,480
um you can just give me the information

479
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,920
if you like then we can all go home and

480
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,120
get on with our lives wouldn't that be

481
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,519
nice

482
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,360
but in some cases agencies don't want to

483
00:17:01,519 --> 00:17:05,120
do that in which case then you are

484
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,120
invoking the freedom of information act

485
00:17:05,120 --> 00:17:08,880
and making it very clear to them

486
00:17:07,120 --> 00:17:10,720
that you they have to follow that

487
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,559
particular process so that's a

488
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,720
boilerplate i just put that at the top

489
00:17:12,559 --> 00:17:16,959
of all of my requests

490
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,039
now remember we mentioned before that

491
00:17:16,959 --> 00:17:21,760
foi is about documents

492
00:17:19,039 --> 00:17:23,360
you have to ask for documents not just

493
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,679
information

494
00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:25,679
you can

495
00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:30,799
that is in certain dot so you can ask

496
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:33,039
for documents containing information

497
00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:35,120
you just can't ask say give me this info

498
00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:38,080
you have to specifically ask for types

499
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:39,840
of documents now a document

500
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,480
in inverted commas

501
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:45,520
as a category is quite broad under the

502
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:49,360
act so that includes things like emails

503
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:52,000
text messages photographs videos audio

504
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:53,760
anything that already exists

505
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,000
it can be electronic it doesn't actually

506
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:58,080
have to be printed things it doesn't

507
00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,559
have to be sitting here on a vhs or a

508
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,559
cassette tape or on a dvd or being you

509
00:18:00,559 --> 00:18:04,960
know a pdf that's been printed out it

510
00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:08,000
can be sitting in in a system as a pdf

511
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:10,799
or as an email you can ask for those

512
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,880
but it must already exist

513
00:18:10,799 --> 00:18:15,360
there's a little caveat on this where

514
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,600
there's a very small edge case of when

515
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:20,640
new documents can be created in response

516
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,320
to foi but it practically never really

517
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,919
happens

518
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,240
so the best thing for you to do is to

519
00:18:23,919 --> 00:18:28,320
concentrate on documents that already

520
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,360
exist and you're asking for those

521
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,520
documents

522
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:33,440
but you can describe them

523
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,679
in terms of what is the information that

524
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:38,480
they contain you don't have to know the

525
00:18:35,679 --> 00:18:39,440
exact name or serial number or some

526
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,840
other you know

527
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,120
drive path or something for the

528
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,720
documents all you have to do is describe

529
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:45,140
them in such a way that they can be

530
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,320
found

531
00:18:45,140 --> 00:18:47,520
[Music]

532
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,960
that's where we come to the next point

533
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,720
which is about limiting what you're

534
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,520
asking for

535
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:55,280
you can't just ask for everything

536
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,200
there are some reasonable reasons for

537
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,880
why you can't do that

538
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,320
asking for everything means that they do

539
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,080
nothing but respond to freedom of

540
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,840
information requests and lots of

541
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,360
government agencies actually are

542
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,360
supposed to have a day job they're

543
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:09,280
supposed to actually do things the

544
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:10,799
department of health is supposed to be

545
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,440
looking after everybody's health in the

546
00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:15,200
middle of a pandemic who knew

547
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,880
so if you go and ask them for something

548
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,720
which is largely going to divert all of

549
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,559
their attention away from doing what

550
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,320
they're supposed to be doing on their

551
00:19:20,559 --> 00:19:24,240
you know day-to-day work and say no no

552
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,679
you need to now give us every copy of a

553
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,960
document that you've created since the

554
00:19:25,679 --> 00:19:29,200
beginning of time

555
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,840
they're allowed to say no

556
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:34,240
it's what's called a section 24 a a

557
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:36,080
practical refusal reason and there are

558
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:39,600
basically two categories of why they can

559
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:41,440
say no one is it's too hard

560
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,320
the other one is that your request is

561
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:46,320
too vague so if it's not possible to

562
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,559
figure out what the doc whether this

563
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,320
document is or isn't in the scope that

564
00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:52,400
you've asked for that means that your

565
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:56,000
request is too vague

566
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:57,919
now if you do this by accident and say

567
00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,640
i've asked for too much stuff or it's

568
00:19:57,919 --> 00:20:02,480
too vague or we don't understand you or

569
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,559
this is going to be too much work they

570
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,080
are supposed to help you to narrow the

571
00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:07,840
scope of your request and make it

572
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,480
something tractable

573
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,720
that's called a section 24 a b

574
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,799
consultation process it's in the act

575
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,320
about how that's supposed to work

576
00:20:14,799 --> 00:20:17,840
they don't have to be terribly

577
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,080
prescriptive though in fact the

578
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,320
information commissioner encourages them

579
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,559
to be helpful the whole point of this

580
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:27,200
act is that disclosure of information is

581
00:20:24,559 --> 00:20:28,640
good it's public information held in the

582
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,799
public interest

583
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,799
so they should help you

584
00:20:30,799 --> 00:20:35,280
of course some agencies don't enjoy

585
00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:37,520
being helpful so we'll deal with that in

586
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:40,080
just a moment

587
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:43,600
now the form of the documents

588
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:45,280
um if you don't specify what form then

589
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,720
the agency can pretty much give it to

590
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,600
you whatever form that they think is

591
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,679
best

592
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,919
that's not always appropriate i always

593
00:20:49,679 --> 00:20:54,000
ask for electronic copies because i want

594
00:20:51,919 --> 00:20:56,880
them to email stuff to me i don't want

595
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,880
them to post me a dvd

596
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,799
sometimes that may actually be the best

597
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,679
way of giving you the information so

598
00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:06,559
many agencies don't understand what ftp

599
00:21:03,679 --> 00:21:08,960
is and haven't figured out how to create

600
00:21:06,559 --> 00:21:10,720
a dropbox or equivalent file sharing

601
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,880
service where they can put something

602
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,720
there and you can then download a 200mb

603
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,880
audio file

604
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,880
in those cases they will probably burn a

605
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:21,360
cd and post it to you

606
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,039
which is not unreasonable it's still

607
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:24,480
sort of electronic it's just the method

608
00:21:23,039 --> 00:21:26,080
in which they get it to you instead of

609
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,600
using the internet but for everything

610
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,840
else if you don't say i want an

611
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,840
electronic copy they could by rights

612
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:34,400
print everything out onto pieces of

613
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,919
paper put it into the post and then have

614
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,320
that get lost

615
00:21:35,919 --> 00:21:39,919
or eventually turn up several months

616
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,919
later after it's made it through the

617
00:21:39,919 --> 00:21:44,320
olds post weird system that's having

618
00:21:41,919 --> 00:21:46,159
huge problems at the moment so ask for

619
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,799
electronic copies and that helps to just

620
00:21:46,159 --> 00:21:51,440
shortcut that process

621
00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:53,120
so here's your foi checklist of

622
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,720
what the uh what the things are that you

623
00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:55,840
should generally use so that's quick

624
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,400
review

625
00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,880
is it an admin access or foi act request

626
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,480
we want it to be an foi act request

627
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,080
have you listed documents and have you

628
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,200
been specific about what documents

629
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,000
you're after

630
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,360
have you excluded drafts if you just say

631
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,640
i want everything then they might

632
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:12,240
actually give you every copy of the

633
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,159
draft that's another way to limit the

634
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,600
scope just ask for the final version if

635
00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:17,440
that's all you're interested in

636
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,600
sometimes you might not be

637
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,880
a date range is again another great way

638
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,880
don't say i want everything from the

639
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,559
beginning of time i actually only care

640
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,120
about stuff that was done in the last 12

641
00:22:24,559 --> 00:22:29,200
months 18 months what form do you want

642
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:31,039
the documents to be given to you in and

643
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,400
is this a is this a personal data

644
00:22:31,039 --> 00:22:34,880
request and there's a quick caveat on

645
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,880
that using right to know

646
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,640
is not appropriate for data that's about

647
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,400
you as an individual or indeed other

648
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,559
individuals if there's private personal

649
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,320
information you can ask for that under

650
00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:45,840
the free movement under freedom of

651
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,760
information act

652
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,039
but you won't you shouldn't be doing

653
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,559
that through right to know and in fact

654
00:22:49,039 --> 00:22:52,000
you'll you'll be discouraged from doing

655
00:22:50,559 --> 00:22:54,640
that in the way right to know does

656
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:57,520
things do that in another method

657
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,880
directly to the agency by email or or

658
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,720
bringing them up or something like that

659
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,320
uh well it'll you can't just bring them

660
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,000
you'll need to put it in writing so do

661
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,280
it through email but you'll need to do

662
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,880
that directly

663
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,640
there are some advantages to doing it

664
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,320
that way we can talk about that in a

665
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:13,200
moment

666
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:15,679
the hardest part of foi requests is

667
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,679
figuring out what you want

668
00:23:15,679 --> 00:23:19,520
spend some time thinking about what you

669
00:23:17,679 --> 00:23:21,360
really want to know

670
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,679
and then is there some kind of standard

671
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:26,240
form of document that that information

672
00:23:23,679 --> 00:23:28,400
will already exist in if you figure out

673
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,520
what that is that makes things a lot

674
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,200
easier

675
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,720
government agencies are bureaucracies

676
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,200
which means that they write everything

677
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,799
down on standard forms constantly once

678
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,960
you know what the standard forms

679
00:23:36,799 --> 00:23:40,480
generally look like then you have a

680
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,320
pretty good idea about where the

681
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,360
information is that you're going to go

682
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,679
look for

683
00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:47,039
you'll get better with practice so

684
00:23:45,679 --> 00:23:48,799
go practice

685
00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:50,640
as you start doing more of these you'll

686
00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:52,320
just start to get a feel for what

687
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,720
government actually does and how it

688
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:57,520
behaves and what sort of stuff is around

689
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,440
and if in doubt ask for emails you know

690
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,360
that emails exist and correspondence is

691
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:04,400
one of the things that will already be

692
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:06,880
there and you are allowed to ask for

693
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:09,520
the process hopefully the happy path

694
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,440
process will look for you like this

695
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,520
if you you start off with you send your

696
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,360
request the consultation to narrow scope

697
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:18,320
will happen and then you might have to

698
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:19,600
pay some search and uh and recovery fees

699
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,000
we'll have again we'll talk about that

700
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,799
in a little moment um it will cost you

701
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,360
time

702
00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:27,279
possibly money um that's why this is a

703
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:28,559
hobby a hobby that makes you money is

704
00:24:27,279 --> 00:24:31,360
called a job

705
00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:34,320
and hopefully this is not your job

706
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:36,159
and you can stop any time you like

707
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,080
the decision should get made within 30

708
00:24:36,159 --> 00:24:39,760
days and then

709
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,520
you'll get your documents after that

710
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,840
with a bit of luck

711
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:46,080
of course that's the happy path

712
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,440
the process on the unhappy path which

713
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,120
i'm sure is what many of you are looking

714
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,200
forward to hearing about

715
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:53,279
is mostly short flurries of activity

716
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,640
followed by long periods of waiting and

717
00:24:53,279 --> 00:24:57,200
boredom

718
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,799
you start off by sending your request

719
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,400
and then sometime later there will be a

720
00:24:58,799 --> 00:25:02,159
fight about the consultation

721
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,840
because they either will or won't try to

722
00:25:02,159 --> 00:25:06,320
consult with you and then you'll argue

723
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,919
over the scope for a bit um then they

724
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,240
will try to charge you a whole bunch of

725
00:25:07,919 --> 00:25:11,760
money for stuff that is uh not actually

726
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,080
a reasonable way of charging you fees

727
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,080
for things you didn't ask for

728
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,080
then they will deny your request at

729
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,760
which point you will then request an

730
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,080
internal review of their denial of the

731
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,360
request at which point the agency even

732
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,200
though it's a totally different person

733
00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:26,640
they will somehow manage to come to

734
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,120
exactly the same decision they had in

735
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,880
the first place surprise

736
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:32,720
so then you will go and ask the uh the

737
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,799
information commissioner to review the

738
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,400
decision that was made and then after a

739
00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:37,760
year or so they'll might they might have

740
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,799
a look at it and then they might make a

741
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,159
decision

742
00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:42,960
generally they will agree with you at

743
00:25:40,159 --> 00:25:44,640
least in my case because i was right uh

744
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,320
and then at that point the agency will

745
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,600
appeal to the aat because they don't

746
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,400
like the decision the information

747
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,080
commissioner made uh and then if that

748
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,480
doesn't go very well then you'll end up

749
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:58,159
in the federal court uh if you haven't

750
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,159
already died of boredom or old age

751
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,240
you have to have a lot of patience

752
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,640
because all of this process tends to be

753
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:07,120
run by lawyers and lawyers get paid more

754
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:09,600
the longer everything takes

755
00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:11,440
this has been the robodet saga for me on

756
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:15,520
the business case freedom of information

757
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:17,919
request i filed in january of 2017

758
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,679
as you can see it's little clusters of

759
00:26:17,919 --> 00:26:22,480
stuff followed by lots of waiting

760
00:26:19,679 --> 00:26:24,960
followed by more clusters of stuff

761
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:28,559
and that particular fi request turned

762
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,559
five yesterday so i bought it a cake um

763
00:26:28,559 --> 00:26:33,760
it was quite tasty

764
00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:33,760
happy birthday foi

765
00:26:34,159 --> 00:26:38,080
so given that experience that i've had i

766
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,640
thought you might be interested in what

767
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,480
i have called shenanigans

768
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,960
this is what happens when the agencies

769
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,720
don't want to help you and unfortunately

770
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,000
there are lots of them

771
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,919
here are some of the ways in which

772
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,360
agencies try to be as unhelpful as

773
00:26:49,919 --> 00:26:53,760
possible

774
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:56,000
first one is called too many documents

775
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:58,640
this is when your scope is too broad or

776
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:01,440
they interpret it as being too broad and

777
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,919
then give you a denial using the section

778
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,200
24 double a too hard

779
00:27:03,919 --> 00:27:08,240
excuse

780
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:10,559
um they will deliberately often find way

781
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,720
too many documents or say that they're

782
00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:14,320
actually massive and it takes forever

783
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,840
for us to read these things and figure

784
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,279
out whether we should tell it give it to

785
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,880
you or not

786
00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:20,799
and then they use that in conjunction

787
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,279
with charging you money to try to make

788
00:27:20,799 --> 00:27:24,880
you go away

789
00:27:23,279 --> 00:27:26,880
sometimes they don't

790
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,440
sometimes but when they do

791
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,200
be aware that if you ask for the

792
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,200
information commissioner to review that

793
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,880
decision the ic

794
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,799
pretty much takes a year before they

795
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,279
allocate someone to start looking at any

796
00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:43,360
of the review requests it's a major part

797
00:27:39,279 --> 00:27:45,200
of why foi is broken because uh the oao

798
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:47,120
because the information commissioner has

799
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,279
been deliberately underfunded for many

800
00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:51,760
years after successive governments have

801
00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:54,159
attempted to kill it on purpose

802
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,159
so that's why it's happening

803
00:27:54,159 --> 00:27:57,520
yes it sucks

804
00:27:56,159 --> 00:27:59,520
join me in trying to do something about

805
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,279
it

806
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,919
as well as finding too many documents

807
00:28:01,279 --> 00:28:05,760
some agencies don't find any at all

808
00:28:03,919 --> 00:28:07,520
some of them manage to do both of these

809
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,520
things simultaneously which is

810
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,039
particularly interesting so they'll

811
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,799
start by saying oh you've asked for too

812
00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:14,799
many documents you then narrow your

813
00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:16,799
scope and then they say look at that now

814
00:28:14,799 --> 00:28:19,440
it doesn't find any at all

815
00:28:16,799 --> 00:28:20,640
finding the sweet spot of just enough

816
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:24,080
documents

817
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,360
that's tricky and takes a few goes

818
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,440
sometimes you will need to make more

819
00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:30,080
than one foi request in order to get to

820
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,799
a scope that is actually achievable

821
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,159
you can file new foi requests while

822
00:28:32,799 --> 00:28:35,679
you're waiting for the review of the

823
00:28:34,159 --> 00:28:36,559
earlier ones to happen

824
00:28:35,679 --> 00:28:38,640
which

825
00:28:36,559 --> 00:28:39,760
might end up being a moot point but it's

826
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,760
probably worth running through that

827
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,720
process anyway

828
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:47,919
now sometimes they genuinely are no

829
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,440
documents to be found and that's okay

830
00:28:47,919 --> 00:28:53,120
because the fact that there are known

831
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:55,840
documents sometimes is information

832
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:58,080
and if you can find out that no actually

833
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:00,480
we didn't conduct a privacy impact

834
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,399
assessment for this egregious privacy

835
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,399
invasive behavior that's information

836
00:29:02,399 --> 00:29:06,080
that you can then use to further your

837
00:29:04,399 --> 00:29:08,000
cause so

838
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,919
think about whether finding out that

839
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,799
there's nothing there is something that

840
00:29:09,919 --> 00:29:14,880
you want to know

841
00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:15,679
and based on that particular process

842
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,000
there

843
00:29:15,679 --> 00:29:21,200
i here's a trick i learned from geordie

844
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:23,600
guy which i like to call the foi cascade

845
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,600
this is where you have an foi request

846
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,120
that i that doesn't succeed for one

847
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,880
reason or another

848
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,399
and then you do your various things

849
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,480
about oh we'll do the appeal but that's

850
00:29:30,399 --> 00:29:34,960
going to take ages then you immediately

851
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:37,679
file a new foi request asking for the

852
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,720
correspondence about your original foi

853
00:29:37,679 --> 00:29:41,520
request

854
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:44,480
correspondence often happens in email

855
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:46,880
email is documents so you can foi

856
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:49,520
request the correspondence about your

857
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,799
earlier foi request and you can keep

858
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,960
doing that

859
00:29:50,799 --> 00:29:54,480
now this is personal information because

860
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,240
it's your foi request and its

861
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,559
correspondence about something in which

862
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:01,440
you're interested so the added bonus for

863
00:29:58,559 --> 00:30:04,960
that is that foi requests about personal

864
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,960
information are free

865
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,679
speaking of free

866
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,200
many of these things aren't

867
00:30:09,679 --> 00:30:13,919
one of the one of the reasons i really

868
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,399
like the federal fli system is that it's

869
00:30:13,919 --> 00:30:18,480
free to make a request there's no filing

870
00:30:16,399 --> 00:30:20,880
fee so in a lot of the state-based foi

871
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,279
acts you actually have to pay a fee just

872
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,640
to make the request which slows it down

873
00:30:23,279 --> 00:30:28,399
and basically means if you can't afford

874
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,399
the filing fee you can't do fli

875
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:34,159
there is a certain amount of free bits

876
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,320
of foi but the agencies are allowed to

877
00:30:34,159 --> 00:30:37,919
do a kind of cost recovery um there's

878
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,520
some rules about how they can charge you

879
00:30:37,919 --> 00:30:41,360
money for stuff they can charge you for

880
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,279
two in two ways one is searching for the

881
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,720
information and one is processing it and

882
00:30:43,279 --> 00:30:47,120
redacting stuff that shouldn't be

883
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,120
released um so they will attempt to

884
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,919
often charge you a whole bunch of money

885
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,760
about that often for spurious reasons i

886
00:30:51,919 --> 00:30:56,480
have successfully challenged those fees

887
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,080
and gotten my money back uh but you will

888
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,760
probably need to pay the money and if

889
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,679
you can't afford the float um

890
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,480
crowdfunding is handy i've also done

891
00:31:01,679 --> 00:31:07,039
that too i've crowdfunded the fees

892
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:10,000
um an important point paying the money

893
00:31:07,039 --> 00:31:12,159
in order to keep the foi process going

894
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,399
doesn't mean that you've agreed

895
00:31:12,159 --> 00:31:16,159
to paying the fees you can still

896
00:31:14,399 --> 00:31:18,240
challenge paying it even though you've

897
00:31:16,159 --> 00:31:20,480
you've agreed to pay it to keep your um

898
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,159
your request going so i have a decision

899
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,679
from the information commissioner

900
00:31:22,159 --> 00:31:25,760
specifically about that i think it was

901
00:31:23,679 --> 00:31:27,760
one of the first little bits of case law

902
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,480
i got into austria so you can look that

903
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,039
up and read that case for yourself

904
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:35,039
uh another form of shenanigans that i

905
00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:36,880
have seen happen a bunch which i'm keen

906
00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:39,279
to discourage is what i call the

907
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,600
preemptive section 22 claim now section

908
00:31:39,279 --> 00:31:43,760
22 is a bit of the act that lets them

909
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,440
redact information which is irrelevant

910
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,919
so that means that you don't have to pay

911
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,279
processing fees for looking at say the

912
00:31:47,919 --> 00:31:50,799
second half of the document which has

913
00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:52,480
nothing to do with your request and

914
00:31:50,799 --> 00:31:54,000
you're not interested in it so what they

915
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,919
can do is they can just cut that out or

916
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,600
blank it out and you're fine with that

917
00:31:55,919 --> 00:31:58,480
and that doesn't take very much time to

918
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,559
do

919
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,720
what some sneaky agencies like to do

920
00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:05,360
though is that they say in responding to

921
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,840
your request they'll say we assume that

922
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:10,640
you don't want any of the personal names

923
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,320
contact emails um personal phone numbers

924
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:15,679
or any any of the other things about any

925
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:19,039
of the people involved in this request

926
00:32:15,679 --> 00:32:20,960
i challenge them on matter of principle

927
00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:23,679
partly because they're not supposed to

928
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:26,159
do this the foi guidelines tell them not

929
00:32:23,679 --> 00:32:28,159
to but they keep throwing it on as far

930
00:32:26,159 --> 00:32:29,679
as i can work out the oic hasn't

931
00:32:28,159 --> 00:32:30,880
actually gone over to them and told them

932
00:32:29,679 --> 00:32:32,399
to knock it off

933
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,080
there's no penalty for them trying this

934
00:32:32,399 --> 00:32:36,960
on either so of course they're going to

935
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,799
keep doing it that helps them keep

936
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,120
everyone secret and then you can't

937
00:32:38,799 --> 00:32:42,880
figure out which particular executives

938
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,480
had decision-making power through the

939
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,080
process because they don't want to have

940
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,240
their fingerprints exposed now there are

941
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,600
some good reasons for why certain public

942
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,039
servants shouldn't be

943
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,120
shouldn't have their information exposed

944
00:32:51,039 --> 00:32:56,240
in certain circumstances

945
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:58,880
but the onus is on them to explain that

946
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:01,919
so i say don't let them get away with

947
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:04,080
this section 22 claim if they want to

948
00:33:01,919 --> 00:33:05,919
make an exemption claim

949
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,480
force them to do that they have to make

950
00:33:05,919 --> 00:33:08,480
their case

951
00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:11,519
last bit of shenanigans that i want to

952
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,519
talk about before we talk more about

953
00:33:11,519 --> 00:33:14,960
those exemptions is what i call the last

954
00:33:13,519 --> 00:33:17,360
minute question

955
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,440
so they love to do things at the very

956
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,440
last minute so there are statutory time

957
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,360
frames about you know if we start here

958
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,360
you have this long to respond before you

959
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,279
have to give me a decision they love to

960
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,600
bring it to you at the last possible

961
00:33:27,279 --> 00:33:32,320
moment on the last possible day

962
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:35,120
on one occasion possibly two

963
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:37,120
i had an agency ask me a question

964
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,360
on the very last day i think they sent

965
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,519
it to me at like 9 00 p.m on the final

966
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,360
day of the of what was the consultation

967
00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:45,440
period and because i wasn't sitting

968
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,519
there watching my my computer waiting

969
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,039
for their emails to come in i didn't

970
00:33:47,519 --> 00:33:50,799
respond until the following morning it

971
00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:52,880
was early the following morning but then

972
00:33:50,799 --> 00:33:55,279
they said oh no you didn't respond

973
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,840
within the time frame so we've treated

974
00:33:55,279 --> 00:33:59,840
your foi request as withdrawn

975
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,559
um that's nonsense

976
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,480
but some of them will try it on

977
00:34:02,559 --> 00:34:06,399
um you may have picked up that there are

978
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,159
some systems design and incentives

979
00:34:06,399 --> 00:34:10,800
problems here and yes

980
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:10,800
yes there are

981
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:16,000
now let's have a chat about exemptions

982
00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:17,200
um they don't have to give you

983
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,440
everything

984
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,839
there are classes of information which

985
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,839
they are allowed to redact or simply say

986
00:34:21,839 --> 00:34:26,240
no you can't have it

987
00:34:23,839 --> 00:34:29,440
this is not unreasonable

988
00:34:26,240 --> 00:34:30,480
how they use it can be unreasonable but

989
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,000
let's have a look at the basic

990
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,440
categories so that you have an

991
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,520
understanding of what they might try to

992
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,760
do so the two categories are

993
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,639
unconditional exemptions and conditional

994
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,320
exemptions so unconditional exemptions

995
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:44,399
these are ones where if they if the

996
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,720
document is covered by one of these

997
00:34:44,399 --> 00:34:49,520
exemptions there's no public interest

998
00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:51,440
test that it's just exempt

999
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,440
you don't get to argue the fact that

1000
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,280
they should give it to you anyway

1001
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,440
uh the unconditional exemptions within

1002
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,640
the act are these ones um

1003
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,400
let's i'm not going to go through them

1004
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,480
in detail but i will point out the ones

1005
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,880
that get used most in my experience and

1006
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,560
that that's these ones cabinet documents

1007
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,079
material obtained in confidence and

1008
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,920
trade secrets

1009
00:35:08,079 --> 00:35:11,760
the cabinet documents one the current

1010
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,440
government loves to use this one and in

1011
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,720
fact they're trying to extend it to

1012
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,920
cover basically everything the

1013
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:19,760
government does which is nonsense but

1014
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,960
fighting this is time consuming and

1015
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,040
painful

1016
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,119
so be on the lookout for that one the

1017
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,599
other one is generally when you ask for

1018
00:35:25,119 --> 00:35:29,040
things that deal with government

1019
00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:30,320
dealing with private business so

1020
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,920
particularly where they've outsourced a

1021
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,079
function and you want to say look at a

1022
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,599
contract about what did the contract say

1023
00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:36,960
you were supposed to deliver in exchange

1024
00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:38,960
for all of this money that apparently

1025
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,880
disappeared into thin air

1026
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,079
they will often claim that the materials

1027
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,400
that they got from the company were

1028
00:35:42,079 --> 00:35:46,079
provided in confidence or contain

1029
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,880
commercially valuable or trade secret

1030
00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:49,760
information and you can't have it

1031
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,040
again

1032
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,119
make them argue

1033
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,920
make them make the case the onus is on

1034
00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:56,640
them

1035
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,640
to explain that yes this material was

1036
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,839
obtained in confidence and in order to

1037
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,160
claim this exemption there's a whole

1038
00:35:59,839 --> 00:36:03,839
bunch of tests that they have to satisfy

1039
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,920
make them do it

1040
00:36:03,839 --> 00:36:07,839
and then we have conditional exemptions

1041
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,160
same sort of processes as the regular

1042
00:36:07,839 --> 00:36:12,560
exemptions but there's a public interest

1043
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,480
test what that means is that even if

1044
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,720
they can claim one of these conditional

1045
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:19,359
exemptions you can still get the

1046
00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:21,760
information if the public interest in

1047
00:36:19,359 --> 00:36:24,640
disclosure outweighs

1048
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,160
the interest in keeping it a secret

1049
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,760
there's a whole bunch of tests for how

1050
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,119
that works i'm not going to go into that

1051
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,680
in great detail it's it's quite

1052
00:36:29,119 --> 00:36:34,240
complicated piece of piece of law um

1053
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,680
weirdly the agencies basically never

1054
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:37,760
think the public interest outweighs

1055
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,839
their desire for secrecy

1056
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,760
dunno

1057
00:36:38,839 --> 00:36:44,320
weird um these are the ones that are

1058
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,920
available to them in the act

1059
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,960
these are the ones that they tend to use

1060
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,599
a lot

1061
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,599
deliberative processes is where it's

1062
00:36:49,599 --> 00:36:52,880
their internal thinking processes or

1063
00:36:51,599 --> 00:36:54,640
when they're trying to figure out what

1064
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,079
they should do

1065
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,079
they want to keep that a secret because

1066
00:36:56,079 --> 00:36:59,599
it's they want to have the freedom to be

1067
00:36:58,079 --> 00:37:01,680
able to look at alternative options

1068
00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:03,839
without people freaking out about well

1069
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,280
that's not a good idea but we wanted to

1070
00:37:03,839 --> 00:37:08,640
explore it and understand why it's not a

1071
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,400
good idea again that's reasonable

1072
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,960
however once the decision has been made

1073
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:15,680
i would say we kind of want to know

1074
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,920
what led to this terrible decision

1075
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:20,480
we want to figure out what went wrong so

1076
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,560
we can stop it happening again

1077
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,480
uh certain operations of agencies and

1078
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,640
personal privacy this is again this is

1079
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,119
used to attend essentially keep things

1080
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,839
secret um if you found out the way that

1081
00:37:29,119 --> 00:37:33,920
we did things you wouldn't like it and

1082
00:37:31,839 --> 00:37:35,680
we wouldn't be able to do it anymore

1083
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,599
that is something that they try to cover

1084
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,200
under certain operations of agencies i

1085
00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:40,560
say well

1086
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,720
if we knew

1087
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:45,119
and we told you to stop

1088
00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:46,720
that's a good thing

1089
00:37:45,119 --> 00:37:49,520
and we need this sort of information in

1090
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:50,720
order to be able to inform how we vote

1091
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,880
so i say

1092
00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:55,440
go at it make them justify the

1093
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,440
exemptions

1094
00:37:55,839 --> 00:37:59,760
make a request

1095
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,920
hopefully you've seen all of this stuff

1096
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,839
and it's given you a basic primer for

1097
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,000
what to expect i hope i haven't scared

1098
00:38:03,839 --> 00:38:08,160
you off by the unhappy path and that you

1099
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,440
mostly deal with the happy path

1100
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,640
but know that there's people that can

1101
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,400
help you and

1102
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,320
i learned how to do this stuff just by

1103
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,640
doing it so

1104
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,560
go make a request go go look at right to

1105
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,000
know go and look at what other people

1106
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,320
have done you don't need to log in in

1107
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,160
order to just read what's already there

1108
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,680
go and look at what has succeeded in the

1109
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,280
past go and see what other people just

1110
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,119
like you have done learn from what

1111
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,560
they've done and then give it a go

1112
00:38:29,119 --> 00:38:33,520
yourself

1113
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,880
just make a request pick a small one

1114
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,520
something easy

1115
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:39,359
and give it a try

1116
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,440
join me in getting better funding for

1117
00:38:39,359 --> 00:38:44,079
the agencies responsible for oversight

1118
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:46,640
of this um with more people using this

1119
00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:49,119
system and forcing change that's how

1120
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:51,359
we'll actually make things improve

1121
00:38:49,119 --> 00:38:52,320
these shenanigans bits that needs to

1122
00:38:51,359 --> 00:38:55,200
stop

1123
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:57,440
but i need your help to do it

1124
00:38:55,200 --> 00:39:00,000
and finally good luck um i hope you

1125
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:02,079
don't really need the luck but i wish

1126
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,920
you luck in the anyway and if you want

1127
00:39:02,079 --> 00:39:06,079
any help here's where you can find me

1128
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,040
online on on twitter or just drop me an

1129
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:08,560
email

1130
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,240
i'll be more than happy to talk with you

1131
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,920
and looks like we have a little bit of

1132
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:13,599
time left at the end of the talk where

1133
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,240
we can cover that as well and i'm more

1134
00:39:13,599 --> 00:39:18,240
than happy to do that

1135
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:19,520
and uh here's credits for the images if

1136
00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:21,359
you want to go and find this sort of

1137
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,119
stuff yourself these are all free stock

1138
00:39:21,359 --> 00:39:24,320
things but i like to give credit for the

1139
00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:26,079
things that i've used thank you to all

1140
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,000
the people who took these photos and

1141
00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:29,839
allowed me to use them for free in my

1142
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,920
silly little talk about foi

1143
00:39:29,839 --> 00:39:33,599
thanks very much

1144
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,560
well thank you justin that was an

1145
00:39:33,599 --> 00:39:40,480
excellent uh overview of the

1146
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:43,440
bureaucratic democratic process

1147
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,800
and we do have sorry

1148
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,160
though you're right i was just gonna say

1149
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,880
yes democracy with australian

1150
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:52,000
characteristics is what we have okay

1151
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:54,800
we do have uh one question and a half

1152
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,839
okay so the first question is has anyone

1153
00:39:54,800 --> 00:40:01,359
been able to obtain source code to sites

1154
00:39:57,839 --> 00:40:04,560
applications etc via foi

1155
00:40:01,359 --> 00:40:06,560
oh good question um has anyone ever i'm

1156
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,319
not sure i know that people have

1157
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,640
attempted to get source code for things

1158
00:40:08,319 --> 00:40:14,000
like vote counting stuff particularly in

1159
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:16,079
the senate that's been unsuccessful um

1160
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,359
i'm from memory they use the trade

1161
00:40:16,079 --> 00:40:19,440
secrets or commercially valuable

1162
00:40:17,359 --> 00:40:20,319
information exemption

1163
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,200
um

1164
00:40:20,319 --> 00:40:25,839
like in theory yes

1165
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,359
it is it is a document um i think the

1166
00:40:25,839 --> 00:40:28,960
only reason they haven't been able they

1167
00:40:27,359 --> 00:40:30,640
haven't been successful is because um

1168
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,960
the exemptions have been claimed and i

1169
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:35,040
believe upheld uh but i don't know

1170
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,200
enough to to be able to confidently say

1171
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:40,800
that it's never been successful um or

1172
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,800
whether it actually has sorry

1173
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:47,440
okay then and we also have one a low

1174
00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:49,440
priority question someone is observed uh

1175
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,599
or probably jealous of the speakers you

1176
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,040
have behind you and ask what speakers

1177
00:40:51,599 --> 00:40:54,400
are they

1178
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,800
uh right

1179
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:59,440
these ones back here okay so these are

1180
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:02,319
from a very old car stereo system these

1181
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:04,400
are alpine speakers from a

1182
00:41:02,319 --> 00:41:06,800
self-modification thing i did when i was

1183
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:09,920
young and had way too much money from

1184
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:12,560
one very generous tax return uh and way

1185
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:16,160
too much free time and so i installed

1186
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:18,640
these into my uh blue nissan bluebird

1187
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:20,960
it was a 80s model something or other so

1188
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:23,520
these came out of that car before i sold

1189
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,800
it and got rid of it for scrap and

1190
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,800
eventually i decided i should put

1191
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,160
enclosures in these and turn them into a

1192
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,319
stereo system

1193
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:34,599
you can't see them but underneath my

1194
00:41:30,319 --> 00:41:34,599
feet are a couple of 10-inch subwoofers

1195
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,520
okay and we have one

1196
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,440
uh question just appeared or actually

1197
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:44,000
two questions just appeared

1198
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,800
have any political parties pledge to

1199
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:49,440
providing more funding to the

1200
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:51,760
o o-a-i-c

1201
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,079
uh not that i'm aware of

1202
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,520
if they have i would be very keen to

1203
00:41:54,079 --> 00:41:57,599
know about it

1204
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,400
and i would encourage all of them to do

1205
00:41:57,599 --> 00:42:00,240
so

1206
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,599
they all seem to claim that they enjoy

1207
00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:02,960
democracy

1208
00:42:01,599 --> 00:42:04,560
i would like them to put their money

1209
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,240
where their mouth is

1210
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,920
i don't really care what they say i care

1211
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:09,599
what they do

1212
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,760
and they can promise whatever they like

1213
00:42:09,599 --> 00:42:14,640
but until it actually happens i will be

1214
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,640
highly skeptical

1215
00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:20,160
okay and we have a another one uh i feel

1216
00:42:18,079 --> 00:42:22,880
like we could crowdsource a lot of

1217
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:26,000
things a list of things rather

1218
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:29,200
uh people of lca might be keen on

1219
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:31,280
finding more about from the government

1220
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,680
and then get us uh

1221
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:36,000
foi interested people to follow them

1222
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,920
through is there anything out there like

1223
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:40,160
that

1224
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,760
uh well you it's that's just a priority

1225
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,680
list really um

1226
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,760
we all have our own so feel free to

1227
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:48,000
create one um canvas people who are

1228
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:50,319
interested absolutely organise

1229
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,000
yourselves to do this i i thoroughly

1230
00:42:50,319 --> 00:42:53,599
support that idea

1231
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,440
get involved

1232
00:42:53,599 --> 00:42:56,640
do it yourself if you have an idea you

1233
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,880
don't have to wait for someone else to

1234
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,480
give you permission go to right to know

1235
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,800
and just do one

1236
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:05,839
it's as you said cut and paste from mine

1237
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:10,079
change a few bits of it hit go done

1238
00:43:05,839 --> 00:43:11,680
it's it is that easy um do all of them

1239
00:43:10,079 --> 00:43:13,520
yes and in the words of some other

1240
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:17,839
presenters is probably an excellent

1241
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:20,640
example of a community building exercise

1242
00:43:17,839 --> 00:43:23,200
absolutely i i have been uh amazed and

1243
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:25,440
gratified at uh how many people have

1244
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,359
been inspired by just me sharing what

1245
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,200
i've been doing because it makes it more

1246
00:43:27,359 --> 00:43:31,200
interesting for me as part of my hobby i

1247
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,800
feel less lonely doing it that way um

1248
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,359
they've seen what i've done and a whole

1249
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:37,119
bunch of people have said oh i i can do

1250
00:43:35,359 --> 00:43:39,920
that and picked it up and went and did

1251
00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:42,640
it themselves absolutely you can do this

1252
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,240
and i encourage all of you to do it more

1253
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,400
you will get better at it as you do more

1254
00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:48,079
of it but it's it's easy to get started

1255
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,880
um and there are lots of people who

1256
00:43:48,079 --> 00:43:52,800
would be who'd be happy to help you um i

1257
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,440
i'm happy to give people pointers as

1258
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,880
much as i can i i my time isn't infinite

1259
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,160
but i'm i'm more than happy to help

1260
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:01,119
people and sort of steer them in the

1261
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,079
right direction um i'm not a lawyer none

1262
00:44:01,119 --> 00:44:04,240
of what i

1263
00:44:02,079 --> 00:44:07,599
said is legal advice this is very much

1264
00:44:04,240 --> 00:44:09,920
an amateur hobbyist view of things but

1265
00:44:07,599 --> 00:44:12,160
um there's a rich history of of

1266
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:14,000
documentation one great thing about the

1267
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,400
law is that it's all written down so you

1268
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:20,240
can go and read it um if you can read

1269
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,240
source code you can read read the law

1270
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:26,800
okay we have another question also uh

1271
00:44:23,839 --> 00:44:29,760
how much does the privacy acts apps get

1272
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:32,880
in the way of foi when attempting to get

1273
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:34,319
unredacted info

1274
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,359
um not

1275
00:44:34,319 --> 00:44:39,119
heaps well it but it uh good consulting

1276
00:44:37,359 --> 00:44:40,160
answer it depends

1277
00:44:39,119 --> 00:44:42,560
um

1278
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:44,640
generally if so the the privacy act is

1279
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,400
mostly about keeping people's individual

1280
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,839
privacy um

1281
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,880
their private information private to

1282
00:44:47,839 --> 00:44:50,480
themselves

1283
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,400
um government

1284
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,800
uh people who work for government so

1285
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:59,040
public servants doing their regular

1286
00:44:54,800 --> 00:45:01,440
public servant job as as the public

1287
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,119
they have no inherent right to privacy

1288
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,280
in the stuff that they're doing so

1289
00:45:03,119 --> 00:45:07,119
there's explicit stuff in in foi that

1290
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,800
says look if you're going about your

1291
00:45:07,119 --> 00:45:09,839
regular job as a member of the public

1292
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,520
service

1293
00:45:09,839 --> 00:45:14,160
you should assume that everything that

1294
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:16,400
you're writing down is something which

1295
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:18,319
is going to be made public

1296
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,240
the fact that your name shows up in a

1297
00:45:18,319 --> 00:45:22,960
regular document that you just do as

1298
00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:24,880
part of your job like well that's just a

1299
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,640
part of your job there's no inherent

1300
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,800
privacy interest in that

1301
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:31,119
um there have been some interesting

1302
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,280
arguments made of late which i won't go

1303
00:45:31,119 --> 00:45:35,280
into huge detail there there's a

1304
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,680
discussion paper and a whole decision uh

1305
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:40,000
consultation process that oaic went

1306
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:42,160
through quite recently that goes into

1307
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,760
the issues of private information and

1308
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,560
public servants and how should that be

1309
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,560
disclosed um so not

1310
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,880
or available provided information in

1311
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,720
confidence

1312
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:08,240
those are the areas where you might have

1313
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:08,240
an intersection with the privacy act

1314
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,920
okay i think we need to call time there

1315
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,640
it's a

1316
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:16,720
quarter past we did have one extra

1317
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,000
question if you have a chance you can

1318
00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:20,800
have a look at it and

1319
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:22,960
answer later happy too um i'll go and

1320
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,560
hang out in the chat and uh and answer

1321
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,760
some more questions there so

1322
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,920
thank you again

1323
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,920
thank you