Subject: [Gimp-gui] GIMP shows a thumbnail in taskbar rather than its icon

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:28:07 +0200

Hi,

Right now, the GIMP icon in taskbar/alt-tab is either the Wilber icon 
when no image is opened or a thumbnail of the image otherwise.
A Windows user raised the issue that when there are a lot of 
applications opened, it is difficult to find GIMP when it shows a 
thumbnail and would propose to always show the Wilber icon.
Feature request: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707932

A recent proposition has been that we always show the Wilber icon in 
single window mode, and the thumbnails in multi-windows mode with images 
opened.

Though at times I appreciated the idea of showing thumbnails, nowadays I 
am not sure anymore this is that much interesting. As users note, it 
makes it more difficult sometimes to find GIMP windows.

Also I notice that in GNOME 3, there is no taskbar anymore, it groups 
windows per application (which means that alt-tab does not switch 
between several GIMP windows anymore), and it always show the 
application icon (whether in alt-tab or anywhere else).
I could not find any GNOME or FreeDesktop spec though with explicit 
choices over program icons to show in various cases.
I wonder how things have evolved in other Operating Systems, like 
Windows 10 and OSX. Any input?

Moreover I think most alt-tab UI (or alt-~  in GNOME 3) would show 
previews of the windows (bigger than small thumbnail icons) these days, 
no? So the icon thumbnail may appear even more useless or redundant 
here.

Does it still make sense to generate icon thumbnails?

Jehan

---

From: Pat David <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:51:55 +0000

I agree with showing Wilber all the time in situations where the visual
will refer to a 'session' of GIMP (ie: single-window mode or grouping as
mentioned in GNOME 3).  In single window mode it may make sense to keep the
thumbnails for identification of particular image windows.

In OSX Yosemite, wilber is shown when alt-tabbing or on the dock (even in
multi-window mode).

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:30 AM Jehan <[email-masked]> wrote:

> _______________________________________________
> gimp-gui-list mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list
>

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:54:32 +0200

Hi,

On 2015-10-14 16:51, Pat David wrote:
> I agree with showing Wilber all the time in situations where the
> visual will refer to a 'session' of GIMP (ie: single-window mode or
> grouping as mentioned in GNOME 3).  In single window mode it may make
> sense to keep the thumbnails for identification of particular image
> windows.

You mean multi-windows mode, no?

> In OSX Yosemite, wilber is shown when alt-tabbing or on the dock (even
> in multi-window mode).

Ok so OSX is same as GNOME 3 there.

Jehan

>> [1]
>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list [2]
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707932
> [2] https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list

---

From: Pat David <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:57:52 +0000

> You mean multi-windows mode, no?

Yes, sorry - in multi-window mode it may make sense to still show the image
thumbnail. :)

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:38:28 +0200

Hi,

On 2015-10-14 17:19, Liam R E Quin wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:28:07 +0200
> Jehan <[email-masked]> wrote:
> [...]
>> Also I notice that in GNOME 3, there is no taskbar anymore,
> 
> It's available as an extension...
> 
>> it groups
>> between several GIMP windows anymore),
> 
> There are extensions to change that, too...
> 
>> and it always show the
> For me I see the image thumbnail both in the window list bar at the
> bottom of the screen and in alt-tab.

Ok, probably thanks to the extension.
Then the question is: do you feel it helps or make GIMP more usable to 
have the thumbnail show there instead of the Wilber icon? Or oppositely 
is it a bother?

Jehan

>> no?
> Yes.
> There's a performance improvement for larger images if we don't,
> unless the user has the active image thumbnail shown on the toolbox.
> But maybe they are also needed for the undo history?

---

From: Liam R E Quin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:19:06 -0400

> application icon (whether in alt-tab or anywhere else).

For me I see the image thumbnail both in the window list bar at the bottom of the screen and in alt-tab.

Yes.

> Does it still make sense to generate icon thumbnails?

There's a performance improvement for larger images if we don't, unless the user has the active image thumbnail shown on the toolbox. But maybe they are also needed for the undo history?

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/

---

From: Liam R E Quin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:40:02 -0400

On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:38:28 +0200

> have the thumbnail show there instead of the Wilber icon? Or oppositely 

I normally work in "single window mode" and do have some difficulty finding GIMP in the task bar, so the beloved marmo^H^H^H^HWilber icon would be welcome there by me - I think it would help to have Wilber.

Sory if I wasn't clear.

Liam

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 18:10:01 +0200

Hello,

On 2015-10-14 16:28, Jehan wrote:
> single window mode, and the thumbnails in multi-windows mode with
> images opened.
> 
> Though at times I appreciated the idea of showing thumbnails, nowadays
> I am not sure anymore this is that much interesting. As users note, it
> previews of the windows (bigger than small thumbnail icons) these
> days, no? So the icon thumbnail may appear even more useless or
> redundant here.
> 
I agree with the others, I also it isn't nessasary to make thumbnails.
But, if someone doesn't use gnome 3 and who doesn't use single mode, 
they maybe still need it.

Aryeom

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 18:12:08 +0200

Hello,

Aryeom

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 20:08:53 +0200

Hi,

> they maybe still need it.

Ok so the consensus seems to be that it is useless, and even often 
annoying, in single-window mode, and that "maybe" it is useful in 
multi-windows mode. But every one who gave their opinion here (4 people 
in this thread and 1 in the bug tracker) are single-window mode users.
Are there any multi-window mode users here who could tell us if they 
actually find useful/annoying/neutral to have a generated thumbnail-icon 
instead of Wilber?

I opened a new wiki page where I uploaded some screenshots I made under 
various Linux desktops (tested GNOME 3, Cinammon, and KDE).
http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Software_Icon_workgroup

I have not yet tested under Windows (I can only test Windows 7 by the 
way), and I will have to borrow someone's computer to even test on OSX, 
but as far as I know, all modern desktops now have improved ways to 
manage windows, with thumbnails in alt-tab, but also some views where 
you show all windows (Exposé/Mission Control on OSX, "Overview" on 
GNOME, "Task View" in Windows 10, etc.).

It seems to me that we are doing the desktop job by trying to provide a 
thumbnail-icon, and though it may at some point have made sense when 
this feature was initially created, I'm not sure it still does given 
that all modern desktop have really improved window management. Even in 
multi-window mode until we get some actual feedback there.

Last point: our generated thumbnail-icons are small and lose their 
aspect ratio, which proves very ugly in many cases, so I am very unsure 
how much it actually help users.

Jehan

---

From: Elle Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:40:23 -0400

> actually find useful/annoying/neutral to have a generated thumbnail-icon

I use MWM (well, everyone probably knows that by now :) ).

I use IceWM as my "desktop". There's a narrow taskbar along the bottom. 
It shows the Wilbur icon and some identifying text ("Toolbox", the first 
few letters of the image name, etc) when GIMP is running.

I've never seen a generated thumbnail, and if one were to appear it 
would be too small to be of any use.

I usually have a lot of programs running at once, with icons on the 
taskbar. Usually there are so many programs running that I don't 
actually see any identifying text. So I depend on seeing the Wilbur icon 
to know which windows are GIMP windows.

If the Wilbur icon were replace with generated thumbnails, I'd probably 
have a difficult time seeing at a glance which windows belong to GIMP, 
and that would be annoying.

Elle

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 21:32:25 +0200

Hi,

On 2015-10-21 20:40, Elle Stone wrote:
> I use IceWM as my "desktop". There's a narrow taskbar along the
> bottom. It shows the Wilbur icon and some identifying text ("Toolbox",
> the first few letters of the image name, etc) when GIMP is running.
> 

Like GNOME then.

> actually see any identifying text. So I depend on seeing the Wilbur
> icon to know which windows are GIMP windows.
> 
> If the Wilbur icon were replace with generated thumbnails, I'd
> probably have a difficult time seeing at a glance which windows belong
> to GIMP, and that would be annoying.

In the wiki, there are 2 screenshots of desktop/WMs, KDE and Openbox, 
which use the generated thumbnail-icon: 
http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Software_Icon_workgroup
So you can have an idea of how well it represents an image.

My feeling on the topic is that it looks actually helpful if you have 
nearly only GIMP opened (or very few other software windows) and that 
your desktop/WM show the toolbox and the docks (as it is apparently your 
case).

But when you have a lot of windows opened, this becomes a nuisance. 
Moreover when the toolbox/docks are not presented in the list of windows 
(this is the case in KDE/GNOME/Cinnamon by default now, at least in my 
tests), the usefulness of showing thumbnails to separate docks from 
image windows is lessened too. You'd likely prefer to have the Wilber 
icon to separate your GIMP image windows from other programs (and bigger 
thumbnails generated by your desktop are a good plus as well).

Thanks for your feedback.
Nobody else?

Jehan

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 16:02:49 +0200

Hi,

On 2015-10-21 21:32, Jehan wrote:
> your desktop/WM show the toolbox and the docks (as it is apparently
> your case).
> 
> Moreover when the toolbox/docks are not presented in the list of
> windows (this is the case in KDE/GNOME/Cinnamon by default now, at
> least in my tests), the usefulness of showing thumbnails to separate
> docks from image windows is lessened too. You'd likely prefer to have
> the Wilber icon to separate your GIMP image windows from other
> programs (and bigger thumbnails generated by your desktop are a good
> plus as well).
> 

I got someone make me a screenshot under Windows (7). That's the output:
http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Image:Screenshot-gimp-windows7.jpg

Even in single window mode, it looks very bothersome to me. You can see 
the chrome browser next to GIMP, which shows a proper icon making it 
very easy to recognize whereas GIMP shows a generated thumbnail-icon of 
the opened image. Moreover Windows 7 was already showing a bigger 
thumbnail of the whole GIMP window anyway.
Right now, the status is that some OS/desktop/window managers seem to 
never use the generated thumbnail-icon anyway, and the ones who use it 
would anyway also show their own thumbnail in better resolution.

At this point, I believe that the whole feature should be dropped, 
whatever mode one is in.
If anyone likes the feature (we have not had 1 single positive feedback 
until now), please make yourself heard now.

Jehan

---

From: Ofnuts <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 22:34:00 +0200

On 22/10/15 16:02, Jehan wrote:
>
> Even in single window mode, it looks very bothersome to me. You can 
> see the chrome browser next to GIMP, which shows a proper icon making 
> it very easy to recognize whereas GIMP shows a generated 
> thumbnail-icon of the opened image. Moreover Windows 7 was already 
> showing a bigger thumbnail of the whole GIMP window anyway.

Sorry, but for me the bothersome application is Chrome... because if I 
have several Chrome instances, I cannot distinguish them (while i could 
if Chrome replaced its icon by the site's favicon, or even had distinct 
icon for its "open" and "private" modes)( Firefox has the same 
shortcomings). Currently, if I have several Gimp images open, I can 
identify them that way, however distorted they are, as long as they are 
different enough. And even in SWM, I could have several Gimp instances 
running... So let's not throw the baby with the bath water.

> If anyone likes the feature (we have not had 1 single positive 
> feedback until now), please make yourself heard now.

So let's not throw away the baby with the bath water.

---

From: Michael Schumacher <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 22:45:34 +0200

> until now), please make yourself heard now.

Maybe it's just me, but I am missing a discussion of various situations
a user might find themselves in on their systems, when they have to
navigate to a specific image (or a few specific images) they have opened
in GIMP.

I'm using Xfce and Windows 7, and I rely on the thumbnails to find the
images I'm looking for.

P.S.
GNOME abandoning the taskbar concept is one of my reasons to not use
that DE anymore.

-- 
Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 23:05:55 +0200

Hi,

On 2015-10-22 22:34, Ofnuts wrote:
> have several Chrome instances, I cannot distinguish them (while i
> could if Chrome replaced its icon by the site's favicon, or even had
> distinct icon for its "open" and "private" modes)( Firefox has the
> same shortcomings). Currently, if I have several Gimp images open, I
> can identify them that way, however distorted they are, as long as
> they are different enough. And even in SWM, I could have several Gimp
> instances running... So let's not throw the baby with the bath water.

I am not throwing any baby with any water. I am on the contrary seeking 
feedbacks. So thank for this, since you are the first person (finally!) 
whose experience is opposite to all the other feedbacks we got until 
now.

Jehan

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 23:25:35 +0200

Hi,

On 2015-10-22 22:45, Michael Schumacher wrote:
>> feedback

Well… isn't the discussion you are "missing" exactly what we are doing 
right now?
Aren't we gathering the various situations in the various OS/desktops/WM 
with various users using one or the other window mode right now?…

> I'm using Xfce and Windows 7, and I rely on the thumbnails to find the

Ok, I just tested XFCE 
(http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Image:Xfce-alt-tab-gimp.jpg). It indeed 
seems the only OS/desktop tested until now with a concept of taskbar 
using the generated thumbnail-icons (well Windows too according to the 
bug report, though the person under Windows 7 who tested for me this 
morning and sent me my screenshot had no thumbnail in the taskbar, so 
I'm a little lost here).
The alt-tab also uses it, which is redundant with XFCE own thumbnailing 
in alt-tab.

So yes the taskbar in XFCE (and Win?) seems one of the only case up to 
now where the thumbnail seems useful.

Jehan

---

From: Michael Natterer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 00:27:13 +0200

For the record,

GNOME also uses the icon, both in alt-tab view and in the taskbar
that some people claim doesn't exist, or is it a sidebar? Anyway,
the thing that appears in overview mode.

--Mitch

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:40:43 +0200

Hi,

> the thing that appears in overview mode.

Some people seem to understand opposite things from what you are saying. 
Are you saying GNOME uses the Wilber icon, or that it uses the thumbnail 
in place of an icon?
Because I also use GNOME 3 (3.16.2) and I never saw any thumbnail-icons 
of GIMP, whether in alt-tab or in the dock in the overview.

Jehan

---

From: Michael Natterer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:10:44 +0200

> of GIMP, whether in alt-tab or in the dock in the overview.

I meant the thumbnail, sorry.

My general opinion about this is that this looks like the rare
case where a prefs setting makes sense:

There seem to be two classes of desktop enviromnents: those which show
a panel/taskbar/foo icon per window, and these use the thumbnail; and
those which show an icon per application, and these use the icon.

Then there is two types of users: those who find the thumbnail weird,
and those who find it helpful.

I think a simple "Use Image Thumbnail as Window Icon" boolean toggle
should IMO work just fine, but we definitely should

1. render the thumbnail always as a square (padded with transparency)
   because at least GNOME distorts the thumbnail to be a square.

2. overlay a wilber icon if we render a thumbnail to make the window
   icon recognizable as "GIMP Window".

--Mitch

> > > > navigate to a specific image (or a few specific images) they
> > > > have
> > > > opened
> > > > in GIMP.
> > > 
> > > > I'm using Xfce and Windows 7, and I rely on the thumbnails to
> > > > find
> > > > the
> > > > images I'm looking for.
> > > 
> > > Ok, I just tested XFCE
> > > using the generated thumbnail-icons (well Windows too according
> > > to
> > > the
> > > So yes the taskbar in XFCE (and Win?) seems one of the only case
> > > up
> > > to
> > > > GNOME abandoning the taskbar concept is one of my reasons to
> > > > not
> > > > use
> > > > that DE anymore.

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:19:05 +0200

Hi,

> I meant the thumbnail, sorry.

Really? Which version of GNOME? Do you use any plugin? Aryeom and I both 
have been using GNOME for the last 3 months and we don't see the 
thumbnail. Even deactivating all my plugins, so bare GNOME 3.16, I have 
no thumbnail as GIMP icon.

> case where a prefs setting makes sense:

Well this is an option indeed. I honestly would really like to see the 
preferences dialog slim down. But if we can't find any other 
alternative, I guess it can do.

>    because at least GNOME distorts the thumbnail to be a square.

KDE did squish the icon in a very ugly way too, and XFCE did some very 
strange (and ugly as well) adding color to the bottom. See my 
screenshots: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Software_Icon_workgroup

>    icon recognizable as "GIMP Window".

This was actually more the solution I was thinking about lately. The 
problem is that the thumbnail is so small that adding a Wilber atop of 
it, will the Wilber still be recognizable? Or if we like add some 
transparency or something to make the Wilber stand out, then will the 
thumbnail actually be recognizable now?

Also if we manage to find a good solution where both Wilber and the 
thumbnail look good, why would we bother with adding a checkbox in 
preferences?
As I say, I think preferences are too full of choices and as a user I 
end up nearly never changing things there and just be annoyed because by 
stuff I don't remember can be changed. Having better default is a much 
better solution to me.

Jehan

---

From: Ofnuts <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:56:56 +0200

On 22/10/15 23:25, Jehan wrote:
> The alt-tab also uses it, which is redundant with XFCE own 
> thumbnailing in alt-tab.
>

And KDE: http://imgur.com/UH28wXQ

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 22:06:15 +0200

Hi,

> And KDE: http://imgur.com/UH28wXQ

Ok. When I tested KDE, icons seemed kind of broken in the taskbar (not 
in alt-tab though): 
http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Image:KDE-Plasma-alt-tab.jpg

I'll add your image to the wiki.

Jehan

---

From: Gez <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:39:39 -0300

> no thumbnail as GIMP icon.

I think I know what Mitch is talking about. I've been using gnome since
the first versions of Gnome 3 and I remeber having seen that iconized
thumbnail right where he says it is. Actually, I remember having asked
devs if it was possible to increase the resolution of that thumbnail to
make it more useful in the Gnome sidebar (it was scaled up from a
smaller version and it looked ugly).
That seems to have changed, probably after Gnome 3.12, I'm not sure.
Currently I only see the Wilber icon everywhere and not the thumbnail
anymore.

Gez.

---

From: Michael Natterer <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:44:48 +0200

> Currently I only see the Wilber icon everywhere and not the thumbnail

I'm on Debian unstable, latest GNOME 3.18.1, and the thumbnail is
in both the side panel in the overview and in the alt-tab view.

I tried disabling all extensions, and the thumbnail is still there.

--Mitch

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:45:41 +0200

Hi,

> I tried disabling all extensions, and the thumbnail is still there.

Do you have a screenshot? I'd like to open a bug report to ask GNOME how 
this works and why some have this or no!

Also there is one thing you haven't told us: do you actually find this 
useful? Now that I don't have this feature anymore, not only do I not 
miss it, but I come to remember that there were times where it indeed 
proved to be a bother to find the right window, just like the initial 
bug reporter raised.

The "thumbnail-icon" idea seems interesting "on the paper", but I'm not 
sure it holds its part of the deal on the long run.

Jehan

---

From: Elle Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 07:43:47 -0500

> would be too small to be of any use.

Hmm, now there really are thumbnail icons on the IceWM taskbar.

This link shows a screenshot of the IceWM taskbar since the latest round 
of GIMP updates that affect the icons:
http://ninedegreesbelow.com/bug-reports/gimp29/task-bar-icons-in-icewm.jpg

The thumbnail icons are small (because I have IceWM set up to show small 
icons) but they do make it possible to distinguish between the different 
image files, which is really nice.

The Toolbox icon looks odd.

Elle

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 13:52:22 +0100

Hi,

> Hmm, now there really are thumbnail icons on the IceWM taskbar.

Yes this is a work in progress by Mitch, triggered by this discussion. 
The first result of the GUI mailing list, which is cool because I see 
this as a success (small one, but that's still a start!). :-)
The change is that a Wilber is now overlayed over the thumbnail, which 
allows to both see Wilber (to recognize the icon as a GIMP one amongst 
others programs) and the thumbnail.

Now it is strange that you suddenly see it. I experienced the same thing 
under GNOME 3 where I was never seeing the thumbnail until after these 
commits!
Maybe Mitch also fixed something without even noticing in the same time?

> This link shows a screenshot of the IceWM taskbar since the latest
> round of GIMP updates that affect the icons:
> The thumbnail icons are small (because I have IceWM set up to show
> small icons) but they do make it possible to distinguish between the
> different image files, which is really nice.
> 

It should be Wilber, which is the default icon of any GIMP window unless 
overridden (like in the Thumbnail case).
Maybe a bug there…

Jehan