Subject: [Gimp-gui] Consensus to create a new Symbolic icon theme

From: coadde <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 22:25:16 +0000

Hi guys, some days ago, i found a Ying Yang icon that is being used as
Symbolic icon theme [0]. Since it is part of concept of Chinese folk
religion [1], in my opinion it lacks of neutrality.

So, i've posted a report about it to bugzilla [2]. In the middle of the
discussion, i've put that use a heraldic shield (proposal of liam [3])
could be a good idea; however, i didn't paid attention that a heraldic
shield represents a imperialist symbol [4] that is opposite of my
principles, sorry about that :(

I've been thinking a lot about a solution for it, then it popped into my
head... "why don't create a new one based on classic GIMP theme? [5]" It
could be proposed as an idea for Klaus that, as Jehan says [6], "he is
kind of the de-facto icon boss for the time being. :-)", however i think
is better open a consensus to encourage community participation to make
a appropriate logo for it and help him too. What do you think guys?

Regards,

Márcio Silva
Parabola GNU/Linux-libre hacker
https://www.parabola.nu/people/hackers/#coadde

[0]:https://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp/plain/icons/Symbolic/48/gimp-prefs-icon-theme.png
[1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_folk_religion#Yin_and_yang.E2.80.94gui_and_shen
[2]:https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=760281
[3]:https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=760281#c4
[4]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry
[5]:https://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp/plain/icons/Default/48/gimp-prefs-icon-theme.png
[6]:https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=760281#c11

---

From: Jorge Araya Navarro <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2016 17:25:35 -0600

In my opinion, secularism is not neutrality (if that is what you mean by neutrality), if you ask me,
it would be an unfair imposition on those parabolers who do practice a religion as secularism holds
a set of doctrines about the world that are contrary to, i.e.: mine.

This is to say that, we should do such a fuzz about this.

El sábado 09 de enero del 2016 a las 1625 horas, coadde escribió:

> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev

-- 
👋 Pax et bonum.
Jorge Araya Navarro
https://es.gravatar.com/shackra

---

From: staedtler-przyborski <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 10:36:49 +0100

Am 09.01.2016 um 23:25 schrieb coadde:
> head... "why don't create a new one based on classic GIMP theme? [5]"
Using 'classic' gimp-prefs-icon-theme is not an option. In symbolic icon 
theme it would be nearly identical to 'gimp-duplicate', soon quite 
similar to 'gimp-images' and it alraedy resemples 'gimp-default-colors'.

Using 'same-same but different' makes sense where actions are similar.

What I'm searching is an icon, an idea which is capable to act as 
'symbol for all symbols'. Maybe I'm to stupid or less-educated  (I'm 
aware of symbol, the artist formerly known as prince) but nothing comes 
to my mind here.

My idea to use yin/yang is quite identical to the use of 'Mona-Lisa' 
when it comes to pictures. 'Mona-Lisa' is one the most used pictures in 
the world, and therefore acts as picture for all pictures.
A quick search showed that yin/yang is (except undoubtable religious, 
political ....) one of the most used symbols.

So if somebody has a better idea than using yin/yang: please propose.

Regards

Klaus

---

From: staedtler-przyborski <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:06:04 +0100

Am 09.01.2016 um 23:25 schrieb coadde:
> I've been thinking a lot about a solution for it

Luckily I had a talk with the project-leader of Iconic Communication 
(http://iconicom.univie.ac.at/home/) Aglaja Przyborski also Publisher 
(together with others) of
'Dokumentarische Bildinterpretation: Methodologie und Forschungspraxis 
(Sozialwissenschaftliche Ikonologie: Qualitative Bild- und 
Videointerpretation)' 
http://www.amazon.de/Dokumentarische-Bildinterpretation-Forschungspraxis-Sozialwissenschaftliche-Videointerpretation/dp/3847401106/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1452440781&sr=1-5.

She understood immediately the problem of the lack of a 'meta-icon'.

As expert she recommended the usage of 4 different smileys in one image. 
I try to realize Aglaja's (you remember, one of the three Graces) idea 
(just to raise another tempest in a teapot ;-)).

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:08:38 +0100

Hi,

On 2016-01-10 17:06, staedtler-przyborski wrote:
> As expert she recommended the usage of 4 different smileys in one
> image. I try to realize Aglaja's (you remember, one of the three
> Graces) idea (just to raise another tempest in a teapot ;-)).

Isn't it similar then to my idea (in the bug report) of 2 (or 3, or 4 
even if that's really possible!) different "Wilber" in one image? Wilber 
being our Software icon, it is a good representation of an icon. Having 
2 or 3 of them, with different designs, in a single icons can mean 
"changing the icon theme".

And it may be more representative (IMHO) than "smileys" which don't 
fully represent icons.
Just saying. :-)

Jehan

---

From: staedtler-przyborski <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:57:03 +0100

Am 10.01.2016 um 17:08 schrieb Jehan:
> even if that's really possible!) different "Wilber" in one image?

Partly. She recommend the usage of smileys because they are common as 
symbol for computerized communication.  If I only use wilber this will 
be an icon for persons with an 'exquisite taste' (in 19. century it was 
really important to have such).

I implemented one wilber. But as a picture tells more than thousands 
words, see screenshot with the meta-icon in action.

Guess thats it. Sometimes things get really easy. You only have to talk 
with the right persons .

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:59:12 +0100

Hi,

On 2016-01-10 17:57, staedtler-przyborski wrote:
>> Isn't it similar then to my idea (in the bug report) of 2 (or 3, or
>> 4 even if that's really possible!) different "Wilber" in one image?
> 
>  Partly. She recommend the usage of smileys because they are  common
> as symbol for computerized communication.  If I only use wilber this
> will be an icon for persons with an 'exquisite taste' (in 19. century
> it was really important to have such).
> 

I think it's not bad at all.
If others are ok, I say we go with it. This topic has already been far 
too long for a very innocent icon, in my opinion. :P

Jehan

>  Guess thats it. Sometimes things get really easy. You only have to
> talk with the right persons .
> 
> 
> gimp-gui-list mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list

---

From: André Silva <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:24:12 -0300

On 01/10/2016 01:59 PM, Jehan wrote:
> If others are ok, I say we go with it. This topic has already been
> far too long for a very innocent icon, in my opinion. :P

The latest screenshot with the meta-icon proposed by Klaus Staedtler [0]
is cool! I suggest go with it too.

[0]:https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-gui-list/2016-January/pngklvtNY334g.png

---

From: Michael Natterer <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 21:49:58 +0100

> [0]:https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-gui-list/2016-January/pngklv

I agree. The icon is great, and it's about the time to end this
thread... really.

--Mitch

---

From: Gez <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:41:42 -0300

> This is to say that, we should do such a fuzz about this.

Jorge: This mailing list and the program hold no relationship with any
religion, so leaving religion aside is a way to avoid problems.
There are many religions, and using symbols that represent one religion
could be offensive to members of a different religion. So yes,
secularism here is a way of being neutral on religion.
Because religion has nothing to do here and it's completely off-topic.

Gez.

---

From: André Silva <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 16:08:08 -0300

> a set of doctrines about the world that are contrary to, i.e.: mine.

I'm catholic like you, however consider Ying Yang, star of David, Nazar
amulet, cross for symbolizing an icon as "a symbol for all images" [0]
is a non-impartial point of view, also sounds imperative for a software
as GIMP that is being used for a lot of users with different point of
views around the world, i think coadde means it, not secularism.

Since GIMP is a raster graphics editor software, why don't use a symbol
that represents it? (eg. ink brush or Wilber), you could create
different ink brushes and/or Wilbers in one image for symbolizing an icon.

Also that, coadde says "create a new one based on classic GIMP theme"
isn't a bad idea too :)

[0]:https://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp/commit/icons/Symbolic/48/gimp-prefs-icon-theme.png?id=836cce83896cb47ef00458b5190d5f0a5e1acd5d

---

From: André Silva <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 16:15:48 -0300

> "changing the icon theme".

+1 i agree about it since Wilber is the main GIMP icon.

---

From: Isaac David <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 16:58:17 -0600

> desaparition

I mean disappearance

---

From: Isaac David <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 16:50:23 -0600

No religious symbol or piece of information whatsoever has the 
potential to offend me, and I would like others to hold to the same 
standard. No matter how slanted, distasteful, incorrect, bigoted or 
libelous a form of expression is; only physical damage constitutes an 
offence to me. If I don't like an idea I fight it with another idea (or 
just disregard it), not with victimhood and censorship.

> by neutrality), if you ask me,

I would like to hear more because your opinion sounds wrong by 
definition to me. Note that I'm not advocating the removal of the 
symbol. For this particular symbol I don't care either way.

> 
> it would be an unfair imposition

Under free software imposition is impossible, by definition. It can be 
attempted but it's pretty much futile. Go ahead positively infusing a 
doctrine in every Parabola package if you like; I won't be restrained. 
Moreover, I think it's your right to do so, for software is not a State 
but ought to be your property to modify and distribute. Just don't 
expect me to use those packages, at least in that form.

> on those parabolers who do practice a religion

The symbol can only be there or not, and multiple religions exist. So 
according to you the removal of such symbol is an imposition by 
secularists on practicioners of some Asian religions, but its staying 
is not an imposition of some Asian religion on a Catholic Christian 
like you. Does not compute.

> as secularism holds a set of doctrines about the world that are 
> contrary to, i.e.: mine.

This sounds amusing. Do you advocate theocracies, the desaparition of 
freedom of religion, or something like that?

>>  [6]:https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=760281#c11

Will take my conversation off-list if the community thinks it's 
derailed.

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 00:23:03 +0100

Hello all,

Top-posting: please could we stop the discussion right here and now? 
This is certainly not the place to be making heated discussions over 
religions.

I think we all arrived to some consensus over the last icon proposed by 
Klaus, that it is nice, and pretty much gives a good enough idea of the 
concept of "icon theme preferences". If anyone has a 
technical/design/artistic/semantic opinion to add about the icon, feel 
free to bring your input. Otherwise let's settle the topic.
In any case, let's stop the religion discussion.
Thanks.

Jehan

On 2016-01-10 23:50, Isaac David wrote:
> offence to me. If I don't like an idea I fight it with another idea
> (or just disregard it), not with victimhood and censorship.
> 
> Moreover, I think it's your right to do so, for software is not a
> State but ought to be your property to modify and distribute. Just
> don't expect me to use those packages, at least in that form.
> 
>> This is to say that, we should do such a fuzz about this. El
>> sábado 09 de enero del 2016 a las 1625 horas, coadde escribió:
>> 
>>> Hi guys, some days ago, i found a Ying Yang icon that is being
>>> used as Symbolic icon theme [0]. Since it is part of concept of
>>> Chinese folk religion [1], in my opinion it lacks of neutrality.
>>> So, i've posted a report about it to bugzilla [2]. In the middle
>>> of the discussion, i've put that use a heraldic shield (proposal
>>> of liam [3]) could be a good idea; however, i didn't paid
>>> attention that a heraldic shield represents a imperialist symbol
>>> [4] that is opposite of my principles, sorry about that :( I've
>>> been thinking a lot about a solution for it, then it popped into
>>> my head... "why don't create a new one based on classic GIMP
>>> theme? [5]" It could be proposed as an idea for Klaus that, as
>>> Jehan says [6], "he is kind of the de-facto icon boss for the time
>>> being. :-)", however i think is better open a consensus to
>>> encourage community participation to make a appropriate logo for
>>> it and help him too. What do you think guys? Regards, Márcio
>>> Silva Parabola GNU/Linux-libre hacker
>>> https://www.parabola.nu/people/hackers/#coadde [1]
>>> 
>> 
>>> [2]
>>> [3] [2]:https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=760281 [4]
>>> [3]:https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=760281#c4 [5]
>>> [4]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry [6]
>>> 
>> 
>>> [7] [6]:https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=760281#c11 [8]
>>> _______________________________________________ Dev mailing list
>>> [email-masked]
>>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev [9]
>> 
>> -- 👋 Pax et bonum. Jorge Araya Navarro
>> https://es.gravatar.com/shackra [10]
>> _______________________________________________ Dev mailing list
>> [email-masked] https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>> [9]
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://www.parabola.nu/people/hackers/#coadde
> [2]
> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp/plain/icons/Symbolic/48/gimp-prefs-icon-theme.png
> [3]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_folk_religion#Yin_and_yang.E2.80.94gui_and_shen
> [4] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=760281
> [5] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=760281#c4
> [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry
> [7]
> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp/plain/icons/Default/48/gimp-prefs-icon-theme.png
> [8] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=760281#c11
> [9] https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
> [10] https://es.gravatar.com/shackra
>

---

From: Jorge Araya Navarro <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:29:16 -0600

My suspect was that of secularism because such world view, in practice, advocates for the
disappearing of all religious' practice, teaching and symbolism from the public square for the sake
of equality among creeds and practices(!). I don't know exactly with what objective, sometimes I
hear it is made so so no one gets offended (i.e.: European institutions order catholic
hospitals/schools to remove their crosses from all rooms so "Muslims don't get offended"), other
times I hear it is done so no religion is "favored" over another (i.e.: nativities scenes or other
Christian religious imagery are forbidden from public government institutions in Europe and USA).

At the end, it just seems to me that all that is ideological-driven, powered by secularism. And
often I see that secularism is sold to people as something miraculous that will bring harmony and
equality to people indifferently of their religion, but that's the trap, because what in fact it
searches is for the disappearing from the public and private square or taming of religion to
subjugate it to secularism.

That's why I question the removal.

And more than questioning the removal of such Taoist symbol, I would question the "political
correctness"-oriented attitude that drives people, such as coadde for instance, to bring these kind
of topics to the table when there is no necessity to bring them. Political correctness, as it is
nowadays understood and portrayed by SJW[0], is a poisonous thing anyone should be faraway from
otherwise it would cloud your mind and your thinking.

Again, there is no need to any removal or modification, not even in favor of such apparent good as
"neutrality".

[0]: Social Justice Warriors