Subject: [Gimp-gui] Tool Options - proposal to new ordering of features

From: Americo Gobbo <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:35:04 -0200

Hi all,
I have thought that is interesting open a discussion around the features on
Tool Options are ordered and classified.

http://postimg.org/image/s3qn2483t/

My proposal is follow this new ordering:

   1. asset (preview, field name, edit link)
   2. preset - new entry (preview, field name, edit link)
   3. dynamics (preview - new entry, field name, edit link)
   4. mode blend
   5. opacity
   6. incremental flag
   7. size
   8. lock brush size to zoom flag
   9. aspect ratio
   10. angle
   11. spacing
   12. smooth stroke
   13. dynamics options
      1. hardness
      2. force
      3. apply jitter
      4. fade options
      5. color options

Thanks,
americo

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From: Americo Gobbo <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 22:15:49 -0200

The ordering approach is only to Paintbrush and Pencil tool. They are the
most utilized on my flows to paint.

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From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 18:13:35 +0100

Hi,

On 2015-11-07 01:15, Americo Gobbo wrote:
> The ordering approach is only to Paintbrush and Pencil tool. They are
> the most utilized on my flows to paint.

The problem with this proposition is that — as you say yourself — these 
are adapted to your own workflow. I'm sure we can find dozens of 
workflows where people would say they want this or that option at the 
top of the dock. And in the end, we won't be able to find a consensus.

Moreover there is also the force of habits. This is not a good reason to 
not change things, don't misunderstand, but it becomes one if there is 
no good reason to change them (like absence of consensus), especially 
when the proposition is to change so much.

I feel that the right proposition would not be a reorder, but rather 
either update the GUI for everyone to create one own's order, or a 
completely different GUI if anyone had a great proposition some day for 
a better tool option's GUI.

Now I may be wrong.
But I just really feel this proposal is too closely related to your 
personal workflow.

Jehan

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From: Ofnuts <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 18:32:46 +0100

On 08/11/15 18:13, Jehan wrote:
> The problem with this proposition is that — as you say yourself — 
> these are adapted to your own workflow. I'm sure we can find dozens of 
> Moreover there is also the force of habits. This is not a good reason 
> to not change things, don't misunderstand, but it becomes one if there 
> is no good reason to change them (like absence of consensus), 
> especially when the proposition is to change so much.
>
> completely different GUI if anyone had a great proposition some day 
> for a better tool option's GUI.
>
> Now I may be wrong.

I wonder how much of this really stems from the crowded Tool options 
dialog, which make all of  us want our favorite settings in the top 
third/quarter. When these settings show up on the canvas, space will no 
longer be a problem.

Also let's not overcustomize things. This also has its drawbacks, 
because you can no longer explain things to other people (or understand 
their explanations if you are at the other end) because your respective 
UIs have become too different.

---

From: Jehan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 19:01:21 +0100

Hi,

On 2015-11-08 18:32, Ofnuts wrote:
> third/quarter. When these settings show up on the canvas, space will
> no longer be a problem.

Is there a proposition here? I know there have been a few propositions 
of options on the canvas (wheel menu, or other special kind of menus 
appearing in some ways), and these are interesting. Is it something of 
the sort or different you are refering to?

> because you can no longer explain things to other people (or
> understand their explanations if you are at the other end) because
> your respective UIs have become too different.

I agree (let's not overcustomize) but not for the same reason. I find it 
a little silly to use the need of "explaining things" as a reason to not 
allow people to improve their tools to suit their needs, hence be more 
efficient in one own's workflow. Not everyone's intent is to put videos 
on the web. Some people just want to use the tool and be efficient with 
it. Slowing them down because otherwise they can't (hypothetically) show 
to others is not right.
And if you need to show someone something once in a while, and really 
your completely customized GIMP were to be a problem, you can always 
temporarily reset your settings. That's not a problem at all.

But I still agree that we should be careful with over-customization 
since it can make things more complicated in the end (as I often said, 
for me, we have far too much in our preferences dialog).

The way I foresee would be at some point in some (likely distant) 
future, we could have a powerful API allowing people to update the UI. 
And when this happens, maybe it would allow to reorder options or other 
things. Then users would just have to download a plugin (because if the 
API allows it, there will be someone making a plugin to change the UI).

Jehan

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From: Americo Gobbo <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:31:34 -0200

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Jehan <[email-masked]> wrote:

> are adapted to your own workflow. I'm sure we can find dozens of workflows
> where people would say they want this or that option at the top of the
> dock. And in the end, we won't be able to find a consensus.
>

Yes, is my workflow to paint... well, I think that this approach is very
useful on the painting but might interesting to other areas. My workflow...
but here I am talking about a painting flow... would be very pretentious
talk by all ;-)

My impression was always that this order is addition of features on the
time. For example... the jitter can be dependent of dynamics... but now
this is not clear in this order.
Another feature... the incremental is far of opacity... but they have a
great relationship.
My proposal... is to discuss the current order also to photographers.

> not change things, don't misunderstand, but it becomes one if there is no
> good reason to change them (like absence of consensus), especially when the
> proposition is to change so much.
>

Exact! But we need understand the main function or main reason of this
gimp-ui mailing list... perhaps is to talk over all... is the will to see a
good app, with a good ui to painters and to the photographers.

> completely different GUI if anyone had a great proposition some day for a
> better tool option's GUI.
>
> Now I may be wrong.

The current order is perhaps a vision of one flow or area?
If yes, we have a problem, if not, we have also a problem... :-) the
current order need a good discussion...

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From: Ofnuts <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 01:13:32 +0100

> the sort or different you are refering to?

The idea to put Tools options on the canvas has been floating around for 
a while on the developer's list. Putting a semi-transparent dialog over 
the Image would not be very obtrusive. And this could apply to other 
docked dialogs as well.

http://imgur.com/dBAEK6Q

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From: Americo Gobbo <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 15:26:30 -0200

> dock. And in the end, we won't be able to find a consensus.

Well, I am thinking about this question of flow to paint with painting
tools... It seems a bit strange... for me the painting tools are
essentially tools to paint... perhaps in different ways in the photography
and in the digital painting. The concept of the rearrange or new
ordering... has more affinity with relationship between the features...
than actually with a precise workflow. Declaring my flow... is another way
to say that I've more affinity with painting tools... and not that the
principle to put another ordering is wrong because I use essentially these
tools.

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From: Elle Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:08:54 -0500

> API allows it, there will be someone making a plugin to change the UI).

The idea of being able to reorder the tool options for a given tool to 
suit one's personal workflow, that makes a lot of sense. Would this be 
incredibly difficult to program?

Tools and tool options should facilitate rather than impede the flow of 
work, and GIMP is used by a very diverse group of people for very 
diverse workflows. So a fixed order that makes everyone happy is maybe 
not even possible.

Americo would find a particular order convenient for painting, and I 
suspect his suggeted order makes sense for a lot of other people who use 
GIMP for painting.

Speaking as a photographer, for the dodge/burn tool I'd really like to 
put the options that are currently at the very bottom, instead at the 
very top.

Other examples from other tools and workflows would be easy to find.

Elle

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From: Elle Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:09:37 -0500

> the Image would not be very obtrusive. And this could apply to other

Some people might like the idea of the Tools options on the canvas.

Personally I would find "Tool options on the canvas" to be incredibly 
intrusive, and also very difficult to read.

I don't even like having the Color Picker display "on canvas". It is 
very annoying to have to click the little arrow to get it off the canvas 
every time I use the color picker to check colors (which is often). I 
wish there a global option in Preferences to keep that Color Picker OFF 
the canvas.

So hopefully if any such "Tool options on the canvas" code is committed 
to git master, it will be committed right along with a corresponding 
option that can be set in Preferences, to keep the Tool options *off* 
the canvas and back in a docker.

I'm also puzzled as to how putting the Tool options on the canvas solves 
the issue of the order in which the options are listed. Some tools have 
very many options, like the Brush tool. Even on canvas, a scrollbar 
would often be necessary.

Even if "on canvas" meant "no scrollbar" for a given tool/monitor/image 
combination, if the tool options the user wants to change are not in a 
convenient order, then visually scanning up and down the tool options 
would still be required. So the ability to reorder the options would 
still be very helpful.

Elle

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From: Elle Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:27:22 -0500

> wish there a global option in Preferences to keep that Color Picker OFF

I mean the Color Picker "Info Window". For me, the "Info Window" 
placement on canvas is not convenient but instead annoying, requiring an 
extra click to move it off canvas every time I reopen the Info Window. 
Though surely some people like the Info Window on canvas.

---

From: Americo Gobbo <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:40:17 -0200

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Elle Stone <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> work, and GIMP is used by a very diverse group of people for very diverse
> workflows. So a fixed order that makes everyone happy is maybe not even
> possible.
>
> Speaking as a photographer, for the dodge/burn tool I'd really like to put
> the options that are currently at the very bottom, instead at the very top.
>

I am certain, to have this feature is a great and interesting way to
improve many flows... and will more easy to make tutorial about of process
of many areas.
My main difficult is understand the current logic of the choices... well...
will be better to know this 'logic' or to reorder the features following
some criteria, e.g., the affinity between the features. So in the
Paintbrush tool, for instance, the incremental stands alone in bottom of
dialog, but this has a great relationship with opacity... we can find other
examples in the same tool.
To have a feature that become possible ordering the tool options following
the taste and mainly necessities of user would a great thing.

---

From: Americo Gobbo <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:50:50 -0200

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Elle Stone <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> I mean the Color Picker "Info Window". For me, the "Info Window" placement
> on canvas is not convenient but instead annoying, requiring an extra click
> to move it off canvas every time I reopen the Info Window. Though surely
> some people like the Info Window on canvas.

Who knows MyPaint... it has interesting shortcut features... for example to
colours. On MyPaint is possible using the key 'c' (default, but is possible
change), make a cycle among all colour dialogs on canvas.
Explaining better this cycle: when you use the 'c' key in recursive way...
the colour dialogs change directly on canvas (incremental way)... at the
moment that you stop to use 'c' key... is the dialog that you want. The
next time that you press on 'c' key... the feature is already in the your
choice. After that you are picked on the colour, the dialog is closed
automatically.